Escort 95000ci Radar Detector and LPP Laser Jammer

['09 Milan]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Yep.

Yeah he is really good. Radarkid on the other hand is a totally different ball of wax. Very immature and rude, and very few things he says seems reliable or credible. I guess there's a reason why the word 'kid' is in his username I don't know how you guys deal with him. In that 9500ix thread I wanted to tell him to take it down a notch but I knew how he'd react. It was good to see djrams80 deal with him as he did. IMO you and djrams80 are the two best on that site. Really glad you're both part of the community

[TSi+WRX]

^ Thanks for your vote-of-confidence, but honestly, I don't consider myself enough of an enthusiast to merit such.

Specifically speaking, I lack a sufficiently deep knowledge pool to qualify as a true enthusiast - I'm just another "guy who likes to contribute," that's all. Nothing special.

['09 Milan]

Allen, I remember once we talked about if people testing these heads were making sure they were level, and you had mentioned that they were. I was talking with a contractor recently and he said that making sure that the heads are level is meaningless UNLESS they are level in reference to the car. Do you (specifically) know how these testers are checking if everything is level. From what I've read here and at RD.net it sounds like people are just putting a level on the head, and that will accomplish little

[TSi+WRX]

^ Correct, heads are level, as mounted on the car ... but I think that this is where I'm a bit confused, in reading your reply above - "level in reference to the car."

If the car is level-to-roadway, and the heads are then level as they are mounted to the car, then wouldn't this make the "level in reference to the car" .... well, the proper "leveling?"

Doh....we might need a diagram, here.

AFAIK, it's currently a matter of making sure the car's parked on a true-level surface, and then making sure that each head is level (i.e. that their mounting doesn't induce either a "head pointed up" or "head pointed down" scenario).

I think we'll need a couple of exchanges to work through this one, bro.

['09 Milan]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

... but I think that this is where I'm a bit confused, in reading your reply above - "level in reference to the car."

Yes, this is the KEY phrase. When a building is being made they need to determine where absolute level is. Roads are a little bit different because they are made at a slight pitch to allow rain to run off. The heads - by themselves - cannot be level to the road because they are connected to the car. The car first needs to be level to the road, and THEN adjust the heads accordingly. Still confused? Here's an extreme example; say the driveway, parking lot, or where ever your car is when the heads are installed is at a 5 degree pitch off from absolute level. Your eye cannot detect this so you do not know that the car is not absolutely level. It 'looks' fine to you and so you just assume that the car must be level. You mount the heads and adjust the bubble on the level until it centers.

Now, what's going to happen is that when the car is absolutly level on the road the heads will actually be 5 degrees off from being in true level. That's why the car needs to be adjusted to be level in reference to the Earth first (driveway, parking lot, etc.) and then mount/adjust the heads. I will be buying a contractors laser level to make sure the car is adjusted correctly first, and then I'll use it to adjust the heads. I'll draw up some diagrams to help explain this more later. A picture will explain it much easier

If the car is level-to-roadway

Ah... but this is the whole thing. I haven't read one single person mention that they checked the cars reference to being level before they mounted the heads. At this point if you were to ask them if they did it I'm sure they'd be embarrassed enough to just say "sure, we did that" but I'm not so sure any testers actually did perform TWO level adjustments. Remember, head level adjustment plays a VERY big role in how well the system works. If some of these people testing didn't make sure that the car was level first, then it could easily skew the system performance. The testing community needs to set standards and guidelines so that the public is assured that the test results are fair and absolute across the board. Slapping a head on a car and checking it with a 'bubble' level just isn't going to cut it. Also, if I remember correctly some of these testers were using velcro to mount the heads. The testing procedures need to be more standardized and stringent. The ONLY variable during the tests should be the units/heads themselves.

[MEM-TEK]

Hi everyone,

Just before I flew out to SML, I was getting quite nervous regarding installing the 9500ci for the SML test and had a few questions since I have never installed a laser jammer before. Aside from wanting to know how long the various cables were (all are really long), I wanted to know whether or not I should check the level of the shifter heads by placing my small bubble level on the top or bottom surface of the shifter heads. So, I called Escort CS, explained who I was and that I had been approved to go to SML since their engineer couldn't attend SML, and that I had some questions. In truth I was beginning to freak out since I realized that it was going to be entirely up to me to assure that the Bel and Escort products were properly set up for testing -- and me knowing next to nothing about laser jammers!

Anyway, I got to talk to the engineer who originally was supposed to attend SML yet couldn't for whatever reason. He had been looking forward to attending SML and wasn't very happy that he couldn't attend. Yet he was happy to learn that years ago I used to work at a car stereo shop and had performed many custom car stereo installations and that I seemed to have a fully functional brain in my head.

Apparently the ZR3 and ZR4 front jammer heads are the same size and use the same external cases. The engineer mentioned that the top and bottom sides of the cases are not parallel but instead have a very slight slope or bevel relative to each other. This is due to the requirement for easy release from the injection molding die. The engineer told me to place my bubble level against the top side of the front shifter cases since the internal emitting LEDs are mounted parallel to the top side of the cases. The top sides of the cases have "THIS SIDE UP" stamped on them.

The level which I used at SML is a fairly small white pen level which I purchased from my local Ace Hardware store. It is a very accurate level considering its rather cheap price. We use them on our astronomical telescopes to indicate when the telescope is pointing straight up at the zenith. Using these levels, our telescopes are always pointing somewhere within their 20 arc minute (1/3 of a degree) field of view. That is pretty darned good for cheap levels!

I just got done measuring the front and rear thicknesses of the 9500ci front shifter head cases, and the depth of the shifter heads. I have calculated that there is a 1.7 degree angle difference between the top and the bottom sides of the shifter housings. That is significant. Assuming that you accidentally level your shifter heads by holding a level against the shifter case's bottom surface, then at 500 feet the most intense output of the head will be located at a point 14.8 feet below the installed height of your shifter head. This of course assumes that you are traveling on a flat roadway. At 800 feet (the average laser shot distance) then the most intense portion of your shifter head beams will be pointing nearly 24 feet below the installed height of your shifter heads!

I am heading out of town tomorrow to see my father one last time before he flies out of town, but when I return I will be taking apart one of the ZR4 shifter heads to confirm that its emitting LEDs are indeed aligned parallel relative to the top surface of the case. Nevertheless, I thought that I would pass this tidbit of information along to all of you who own ZR3, ZR4 or 9500ci systems. Escort's engineer said that leveling using the top side of the shifter cases results in very accurate leveling of the shifters.

On a side note, for those of you who must hold the Ace level against the bottom side of your shifters, I will slew one of our telescopes exactly 1.7 degrees north of the zenith and then take a photograph to show the exact displacement of the level's bubble. That way you can use the photo as a reference and level your shifters using the bottom side of the shifter housings.

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by '09 Milan

Ah... but this is the whole thing. I haven't read one single person mention that they checked the cars reference to being level before they mounted the heads. At this point if you were to ask them if they did it I'm sure they'd be embarrassed enough to just say "sure, we did that" but I'm not so sure any testers actually did perform TWO level adjustments.

Very true. That's a very good point.

I think that although this is an "understood" factor, no-one takes the time to point it out at the beginning of their testing or during documentation. It should be done, even though it may seem trivial at today's knowledge-level.

Such a statement would just be good-practice, and would insure that this was an issue that would remain a non-concern for the test.

Very good point.

Also, if I remember correctly some of these testers were using velcro to mount the heads. The testing procedures need to be more standardized and stringent. The ONLY variable during the tests should be the units/heads themselves.

This is indeed always a problem as well - in that some of these "tests" are not nearly as rigorous as they need to be.

Given the current status of the community, as well as the fact that many of these events are just "run what you brung" type of informal gatherings, it's no wonder that "head leveling/aim" can be a big problem.

I think that there need to exist, as you suggested, a more closely and more strictly defined set of standards that applies to "true testing," versus the hobby-oriented events, that are not intended to be interpreted in such depth.

----

MEM-TEL,

Great info. and tips! Thank you!

And just to cross-post from RD.net, to insure that we see this here, too:

Originally Posted by focalcivic

According to Escorts site the ZR4 front heads are smaller than the ZR3's I am pretty certain I read this.

Maybe you spoke to the OLd Bag pretending to be the engineer LOL.

As for taking apart the heads I would not plan on trying to put them back together and using them.

ZR4:
Dimensions (inches)
* Front Laser Transceivers: 3.760 x 1.660 x 0.677


ZR3:
Dimensions (inches)
* Front Laser Transceivers: 4.65 x 1.8 x 0.8

focal - that's very strange, indeed..... Does anyone here have both the ZR3, and the ZR4, to cross-check and see what set of data is actually correct?

Speaking of cross-checking, it's a good thing that MEM-TEK did this for us, for the "leveling" issue, with relation to the product's casing. Indeed, this is one of those areas where Escort, I feel, truly has to step-up and make better. In many cases, the advice that their own technical crew passes along to us end-users either conflicts with or is not in-line with what's in the product's manuals and other "officially" published sources of information (this particular issue of the physical dimensions of the front heads' casings is just one such illustration).

I am most eager, MEM-TEK for the cross-confirmation that, indeed, the ZR4 is an LED-based jammer, too.

['09 Milan]

Originally Posted by focalcivic

Maybe you spoke to the OLd Bag pretending to be the engineer LOL.

Why she is allowed to talk to customers on the phone is beyond me. The most loyal of BEL/Escort fanboys could talk with her and walk away wondering what company she is supposed to represent

I had to correct her on several occcasions when she gave out misinformation. She finally just said "I'll conect you with the advanced engineering department". I'm sure she's a nice person but it's pretty sad when customers know more than company techs. LOL

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by '09 Milan

OK I talked with their head tech Jim and learned a lot of great things. Unfortunately he confirmed that the ZR4 heads need to be installed, but only because the self-diagnostics would pick up that they weren't plugged into the main interface. Also, I thought I read somewhere on this forum that the ZR4 was LED based, but in fact it is a diode based system. He was actually very surprised that people thought it was LED, so that was good to learn.

Again, I'm revisiting this thread.

We now have incontrovertible evidence that the ZR4 is not laser-diode based, but light-emitting-diode (LED) based, as was the ZR3.

Thanks go out to fellow enthusiast MEM-TEK, for this detailed review and dissection:

MEM-TEK's Cincinnati Microwave Shifter ZR4 Review

Once more, it amazes me the lack of knowledge the Escort's staff have about their own product ( there was a recent thread on RD.net where their staff mis-identified features of the 9500ix, causing great confusion among our members - imagine if this happened to a "normal" consumer, who do not have our resources to try to figure-out the exact issue ).

And yes, it is clear here by '09 Milan's report that the Escort engineer above either:

(1) completely failed to understand the convention in our community to distinguish between LED (light-emitting-diode) based jammers and "diode-based" - meaning LASER-DIODE based - jammers (which I find doubtful, for as Milan reported, this engineer, and I again quote "was very surprised that people thought it was LED," where *anyone,* less an experienced engineer in this area, would not know what "LED" stood for a an acronym/abbreviation....

...or was....

(2) simply trying to stick to their company line of "diode" as a marketing scheme - but, which is also inexcusable - in not coming forward with the truth of the situation, when specifically asked as to whether these units are LIGHT-EMITTING-diode (LED) based.

However the interpretation of what and why the Escort rep. cited by Milan said what he did, the truth of the matter is now clear.

This representative was either outright wrong (i.e. lack of knowledge), or deceitful (i.e. misrepresenting the "diode," knowing full well that Milan was speaking of LEDs, verus laser-diode).



It's not a pretty picture, no matter how one would like to paint it, and neither end is acceptable.

If this engineer is truly as high-up in the chain as you said he was, Milan, Escort needs to severely censure and repremand this individual.

['09 Milan]

If in fact the ZR4 is not laser-diode based, but light-emitting-diode, then I don't understand why BEL doesn't do more in house training, especially among their higher up managers and the people answering the phones and talking to the public. In their defense, I did call BEL, and NOT Escort and asked about a Escort product, but still, he was an engineer and should have known more about their sister companies product, and been in touch of what the company was doing. It's like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing over there. Sometimes I think the people on these forums are more educated about their products then they are. Don't get me wrong, BEL/Escort makes some of the best products on the market, bar none, BUT when they give out misinformation is tends to make them look disingenuous at worst, or plain silly at best. If they would only release a ZR4-less 95000ci, then none of this would matter so much... It's the ZR4 section of the product that I'm not so enthusiastic about.