Escort Passport 9500ci or Laser Interceptor

[CJR238]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

And I'm just a child of the 80s that's all. Honed my typing skills on BBSs and mIRC, where having to type fast and accurately greatly affected one's relations with fellow hobbyists. Even the office secretaries are amazed at my typing speed and accuracy.

I am too, but it would take me a week to type one post as in depth as yours. Imagine how long it took for me to do my wright up on the 9500I TrueLock.

[TSi+WRX]

^ ROFL !

[Subie_07]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Like Blinder didn't upgrade to the J15, right? As "eventual" as it did seem to have taken them, and also although the situation wasn't handled to the complete satisfaction of many Binder proponents in the community, it's not like they didn't listen, and do something about the J11's issues?

And it's also like how LI didn't listen when we complained about the parking-beam of LPP/AL eliciting the "Unknown Gun" jamming algorithm, right? Nor like they didn't replace any and all of the first-run-US-units that failed (albeit this did take a while to happen). And it's not like LI isn't the first one to have proved to us to have access to the LI, and have updated their c-box for this hardware?

No support from either of these manufacturers, right?

When I was still off the boards I would scan read about problems with LI and Ivan not responding to people at all and basically Fucked over Elvis...

Now am I mistaken?

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

- you answered neither of the questions that I asked, but instead, actually, you replied with comments on the politics between the GOL and The Goons:

That was me being lazy... You type alot...

Now I am just trying to set things straight with you... so what I said in the quote is how I feel about the GOL testing... and I will send you a PM about some info on the GOL test, and will explain why I do not trust the results in regards to the LS.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

And again, in this exchange:

This whole topic got way off track... and out of hand... and its partly my fault... My deal in that post was stating the power of GOL and the power they have to push things like the LI. So again... I will explain my questions in a PM...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

- to which crazyVOLVOrob then also expressed his sentiment in wanting to know why [b[Audi Quattro[/b] would try to run a "Group Buy" for the LPP here, and try to incite trouble here with the stateside LPP distributor and site sponsor/vendor LPP Rep/DMI-Sport, just before he went the way of the LaserStar?

Audi use to help Alex with sales back in the day... He stopped when him and chris did the LJTs website thats all I know. I do not know any specifics on what happened or why.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX
...before The Goon's ban on the Laser Pro Park Forums ( BTW, care to explain, exactly, what happened, there? why Audi was trying to end-run around go.mouse with a supposed "Group Buy" of LPPs, here, at that time, to also incite trouble with the stateside-authorized LPP reseller and site sponsor Vendor, DMI-Sport? and also care to explain why Audi PM'ed me to try to sell me a LaserStar, even at that early time, while he was still involved on the LPP side? nothing funny going on there, right? )....
This is a point which cVR later reiterated in post #74 - and as a matter of fact, LEADS OFF said post, but yet, it is completely ignored?

Is this perhaps touching on "politics?"

Yes, I think so - but given the political discourses of your previous two replies, why the reluctance to comment on this issue?

I do not know why, I am not Audi... I also do not know why he PM'd you about the Laser Star... I honestly do not know about that. I can not really comment on it except that I do not know.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Your follow-up post,, #81 in that thread, again was a discussion on the background politics and the characters at play. And while I do understand your reluctance to bring others into the fray, without their own presence here on these Forums - and I appreciate the honor with which you're doing so (albeit a slight trespass in post #83, but it can be said there that you were responding specifically to cVr, and that does excuse this small transgression) - it still, nevertheless, goes against the grain of what you said above, here, in this very post, in that you've answered the quantitative questions, and do not discuss "politics."

Like I said, the thread got out of hand... and I can tell you that yes I was being political... So I guess what I should have said above is ... I will try to answer your questions about the Laser Star directly the best I know... and I want to stay away from politics and bandwagons.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

You ask us in that post, post #81, to question "everything," yet, repeatedly, you assert that it is the GOL's results that we are to question, but not, somehow, the same of LJT.

And pretty much after page 10, your replies simply devolve into personal banter, telling-off various other members here, and to repeatedly say that you're not here to answer questions, but to, instead, "start debates" and to also pose more questions (posts #113 and 118).

No true answers were ever give to any of the questions that could have been answered in a straightforward manner (be it questions of the LaserStar, or questions of the various people concerned with the LaserStar or LJT, such as that very simple question of "why would Audi lie and use Ronin, his own friend's, known LPP/ZR3 video for LaserStar advertising purposes," to pervert the data and claims as-such?) - instead, most of the talk was about politics.

It went bad to worse... especially after CVRs personal attacks... I pretty much was just pissed.

I apologize for all that.

As far as questioning LJTs and why Ronins Video is on the website... I have no idea why that happened... I will say that its pretty much pointless to say question LJTs cause everyone already does... I do not have a problem with that... I just think people are missing the bigger problem... but I already have stated that and I really do not want to go that route again.


Hopefully this will answer some of those questions.

[Subie_07]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

^ But that's just the same as the AL G8, as well as the LPP - both of which utilize epoxy to effect sealing not only around the transmitting and receiving diodes (more specifically, the optical collimator overlaying this component) as well as to cover the circuitboard - and these examples all have seen both past as well as ongoing weathersealing problems.

And yet, strangely enough, the ZR3 heads, without any type of such circuitboard armor, have seen nearly worry-free performance in this respect, over the course of the last 4 years.

Photographic evidence of such "internal" head configurations for the AL G8, LPP, as well as ZR3 (and even the ZR4) readily exists in the many online sources, available to any hobbyist, and come from varied sources.

As I said prior, it just doesn't make any sense - and that the issue of weathersealing is not isolated to the type of sealant used, but rather, to both that as well as the overall component design.

I think it boils down to Build Quality... and the laser star is some of the best I have seen. The Epoxy is merely a back up protections... but I guess what you have been saying all along is if they get it right the first time (like the Zr3) they you wouldn't need a back up... So silicone vs epoxy would not matter if both have done well with their weather sealing. But we will not know till people use both...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Pride of ownership is one thing, but that's approaching being a fanatic, and being blind to faults and shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a very proud Subaru owner.

Neither of our Subarus have ever seen a day - or even an hour - in the shop. Certainly, my religious and rigorous self-maintenance schedule likely helps, but my wife lacks mechanical empathy, and although I admittedly take good care of my car, I'm also not the least demanding driver, either....and it's pushing power levels that's well beyond that of a factory STi (on the same dyno that factory STis put down 200/200 wHP/wTQ, I'm putting down 230/280, and that's on the same day, with runs that took place just minutes after each other).

Quite a bit of my everyday wardrobe (remember, I'm a laboratory scientist, so I can get away with wearing a T-shirt and jeans to my job, just about every day) consists of automotive-related wear, and a lot of that is Subaru related.

I'm well-known in both the local Subaru community as well as on the national scene, in terms of the BL/BP-chassis Legacy community. I've even helped-out random Subaru owners, on-the-road and in parking lots.

Yet, I well know that our vehicles are far from perfect. Of the Legacy, with which I'm more familiar, I can rattle off a near endless list of complaints that I've witnessed.

It's far, far from being the idol that you're making it out to be.

I know this... I just joke around alot about my Car!

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

I think that the current-generation LI started in Europe and in the Far East just shortly after the 2007 GOL. Several "silent members" on RD.net, beginning that summer, were able to procure grey-market imports from various European sources.... One local performance-auto enthusiast (serious enthusiast - his project-cars were an ongoing list of amazing undertakings and products/results, including a 1000+ wHP Supra and a 700+ wHP S4; and he's well-known in both the local tuner scene as well as in the underground/illegal street-racing scene) was among the first, and invited me to his shop to check out this "marvel of engineering" (his words). It turned out that before I got the chance to take him up on his offer (our family/work schedules conflicted), I obtained my own set, from Elvis.

And as to the epoxy versus silicone - see above.

I honestly hope that the LaserStar (as well as the PASS) have taken to-heart the experiences won by the various iterations of the AL and the LPP, in order to get its weathersealing "right." As we both know, though, only time-on-road and miles-on-road will tell the final story.

And what happened to Elvis?

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

It would be better, though, if there was a larger sampling population as well. Unfortuantely, I think, due to the latest GOL testing, this is gonig to be harder to come by, as many consumers are undoubtedly now shying away from the PASS as well as the LaserStar, due to their respective failures in the hands of various hobbyists/hobbyist groups.

I wish that others in the community - known fixtures, not new and unknowns (who could easily be called "shills" and such, even if they truly are not) - would examine the PASS and LaserStar in more detail. But given both the performance results from the various testing sources currently logged (for the PASS), as well as the community's overall gut-reaction to The Goons, I think that this is going to be very, very hard to come by.

Just as I expressed doubts about the performance, as-tested, of the LI by The Goons, I also expressed the same about the performance of the LaserStar as-tested by the GOL. I've said, openly, in all of the communities where I participate, that there's simply too much history to discount, and that due-dliigence demands that such conflicting data be discounted, or at least viewed with caution. At the same time, such critical analysis is only to be fair to both sides of this equation.

And to be fully honest, this "doubt" that I've expressed above is even against what I would deem to be my own personal biases against The Goons, and my own implicit trust in the GOL.

Again, I just want to be fair to both sides - even though in trying to give yet another second-chance to the likes of Audi Quattro goes against every gut-feeling and bone-in-instinct that I have.

I am hoping to show up to the Houston Test with a Laser Star that Neil owes me but I am still waiting... He went out of town for a week and so I have had a hard time getting ahold of him... but If I have it I will be there with it.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

But again, the same can and must be said of LaserJammerTests, which poses itself as an unaffiliated and unbiased source of information, but is far from such.

I answer for the things I say... not them.. or anyone else...

And I forgot to Comment on the K40 ...
If you believe Carl on his tests... then you have other problems...

Carl and the SML is a sham! It pushes nothing but Belscort and Blinder and Veil!

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

When I was still off the boards I would scan read about problems with LI and Ivan not responding to people at all and basically Fucked over Elvis...

Now am I mistaken?

No, you're not mistaken, you're quite right - there *WERE* numerous complaints, and yes, in a way Elvis did get "fucked over." But honestly, how much of that was the "business model" that Elvis propagaged - with the examination then focused on why Cliff (C55/C63) was able to not only take over, but succeed, where Elvis failed? [ Everyone who knows me knows that I had no complaints about Elvis, that he did right by me, not once, but twice. Yet, it's also no secret that I'd always been hesitant to recommend the LI, based on the "business model" that Elvis established and then carried through. I'm a firm believer of "what one man can do, so can another" - and despite my fondness of Elvis, based on my past experiences with him, I also, out of fairness, cannot but ask "why" the reasons may be that he could not succeed, where Cliff clearly does. ]

And yes, there were many legitimately disgruntled early-adopters of the LI. No doubt about it. Similarly, the MazdaForums "Group Buy" floundered along.

But at the same time, it should be noted that those problems were eventually - even if it did take until Cliff finally stepped to the scene - resolved.

And just the same, it should be noted that in the context of that particular discussion, which took place in mid-late August of this year, just last month, it'd been MONTHS since Cliff had taken over, and by that point, complaints of the LI - both of its technical durability/reliability as well as of any customer-service/warranty related concerns, had long been a thing of the past.

Additionally, in what I'd quoted of my question/statement ( again, for reference: CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls ) further brought forward the fact that Blinder *did* eventually address the J11 failures (no matter how badly this was handled or delayed, it still finally took place), as well as the fact that the LI Team did respond to end-user inputs (and this was even before LI took active steps, proven steps, against the LTI TruSpeed - which, even as of now, is *still* a step that no other jammer maker has proved to have undertaken).

Yes, there were negatives, but to frame the discussion as you have was to exclude any and all of the positives - positives which were, and are, in fact the standard of operation now, versus what was and used to be.

Again, to be fair to all the parties involved, both sides of the equation should have been examined, but instead, you chose to focus on the negatives only, and past negatives at that, which were, at the time of that very discussion, out-dated and inaccurate (as it had been proven, by that point, that all early-run LI concerns have been addressed, and warranty claims properly honored).

and I will send you a PM about some info on the GOL test, and will explain why I do not trust the results in regards to the LS.

That's good by me, and you know that if you ask me, explicitly, to keep something private, I will.

But that's the thing, I don't completely trust the GOL results of the LaserStar, either - I've stated this, myself, before. Here, on the Laser Pro Park Support Forums, as well as on the LI Forums and at RD.net.

I'm willing to discount that data, given the background interactions between the GOL and The Goons.

---

You'll have to pardon the two cuts-and-pastes below, I've taken things a bit out-of-order per your original line of responses, but I think that it helps the flow of conversation a bit, to merge the replies as such. I hope you can see the logic of the replies:

This whole topic got way off track... and out of hand... and its partly my fault... My deal in that post was stating the power of GOL and the power they have to push things like the LI. So again... I will explain my questions in a PM...

Like I said, the thread got out of hand... and I can tell you that yes I was being political... So I guess what I should have said above is ... I will try to answer your questions about the Laser Star directly the best I know... and I want to stay away from politics and bandwagons.

It went bad to worse... especially after CVRs personal attacks... I pretty much was just pissed.

I apologize for all that.

I agree - and I apologize, in-turn, for having come down so hard on you.

Indeed, your responses were not out-of-sync with what you'd been accused of by the other participating parties.

It's hard to separate the personal from the objective, particularly in this case.

Audi use to help Alex with sales back in the day... He stopped when him and chris did the LJTs website thats all I know. I do not know any specifics on what happened or why.

I do not know why, I am not Audi... I also do not know why he PM'd you about the Laser Star... I honestly do not know about that. I can not really comment on it except that I do not know.

As far as questioning LJTs and why Ronins Video is on the website... I have no idea why that happened... I will say that its pretty much pointless to say question LJTs cause everyone already does... I do not have a problem with that... I just think people are missing the bigger problem... but I already have stated that and I really do not want to go that route again.

I understand well that you're not Audi - but the question raised is not to explain to me the whys and hows of his actions, instead, what I call to question is simply how you could weigh data from LJT and The Goons with more trust than what you place with the same from the GOL, when such questions as I've posed about the conduct of business of The Goons and LJT clearly reflects dishonesty and malice.

If you don't trust the GOL, given your basis of judgement, then how could you turn around and trust LJT/The Goons, given just the issues that I've cited above?

I think that the bigger question here is not whether or not the GOL can be trusted, but rather, why can anyone trust LJT/The Goons at all, given the overwhelming evidence that something's just quite right.

You ask that we not trust the GOL or LI, based on the background histories, based on the underlying conflicts, based on the fact that they do have industry ties.

Fine, that's a valid argument - whether I agree with it or not, that doesn't matter. The argument is sound.

What fails, though, is your defense of LJT, The Goons, and LaserStar.

Based on the same reasons that you ask us not to trust the GOL/LI, it's impossible for us not to distrust and doubt LJT/The Goons/LaserStar.

Based on the evidence at hand, of the inaccuracies portrayed by and of the deceitfulness of one key member of the LJT crew and The Goons, it becomes impossible for us to view things in their favor.

That's the big question, and that's the big answer as well.

Originally Posted by Subie_07

I think it boils down to Build Quality... .... The Epoxy is merely a back up protections... but I guess what you have been saying all along is if they get it right the first time (like the Zr3) they you wouldn't need a back up... So silicone vs epoxy would not matter if both have done well with their weather sealing. But we will not know till people use both...

I agree - there's no way to know until enough people use both, for long enough.

And that's also why I'm concerned about the LaserStar and PASS, in that due to their respective performances in the GOL testing (and the latter, also in the hands of the majority of known independent and group tests so far) would tremendously impact their potential sales.

That would very well cut down the potential population we have to sample from, later on.

As for the epoxy/silicone issue, I also think that as weathersealing, it is indeed a secondary concern. As one of the materials engineers brought up on RD.net, from the photographic evidence that we've seen of failures of the AL G8 heads, moisture was able to work its way between the epoxy shielding and the circuitboard. Indeed, I think that the true impact will be overall build-quality.

And what happened to Elvis?

See above.

I am hoping to show up to the Houston Test with a Laser Star that Neil owes me but I am still waiting... He went out of town for a week and so I have had a hard time getting ahold of him... but If I have it I will be there with it.

Although I think that's a step forward, I think that as of this time, anything but a blind-purchased unit will be examined with - at best - doubt.

And I forgot to Comment on the K40 ...
If you believe Carl on his tests... then you have other problems...

Carl and the SML is a sham! It pushes nothing but Belscort and Blinder and Veil!

No, not SML/Fors.

Instead, Craig Peterson and RadarTest.

Again, this brings up the question of who to trust.

Peterson could also be said to be in-bed with the big manufacturers, but then again, K40 has been known to pull its own weight in exerting its influence. What are we, really, to think, here?

At the same time, members of The Goons, before going their separate ways via LJT, have always been more than just a little negative about K40, even making the infamous video demonstrating the ineffectiveness of their previous laser jammer device, which was later pulled from public eye. So the question begs: why the switch now? Does being somehow in-conflict with dealerships that are used for the "professional installation" of the LaserStar "sponsorship" somehow run them afoul of K40's eyes? or are they trying to defray their former run-in with K40, so that they can use LJT to its full marketing effect, by somehow validating K40's latest, and thereby not run afoul of their influences?

If the EX series is truly effective, Peterson has a lot at stake - I don't think that K40 would put up with such statements in a public/marketable manner. At the same time, if it is not, why would LJT say that it was anything less than the "sadly outdated" (why such an understatement and such a non-specific stance, when, before, their opinions were vehement and directed?) previous version?

To be frank, I trust neither.

[TSi+WRX]

Oh, and BTW, this just occurred to me.....

From LaserJammerTests' Blogs - the following entry.

SPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITESPAM WEBSITE/blog.htm?blogentryid=3630029

I'll quote:

Laser Pro Park has also had several revisions to their laser jammer. One of the big dissapointments with Laser ProPark was it's inability to jam the LTI 100LR 100PPS lidar gun. They were selling these jammers claiming all the guns could be jammed. It wasn't until someone tested the LPP against the 100pps gun that we found out LPP was scamming us. Laser Pro Park then took forever to get the fix out. After they did fix the problem they only contacted people who were pissed about it on the forum. Laser Pro Park did NOT contact all their customers who thought they were 100% protected. LPP didn't issue any sort of recall. They basically screwed over all their customers who aren't 'trolls' of laser jammer/radar detector forums.

-- Chris

OK, now look at this past thread on the Laser Pro Park Support Forums:

http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84

Huh, that's interesting, isn't it?

On LJT, the Blog entry says "...someone tested the LPP against the 100pps gun that we found out LPP was scamming us."

That's verbatim.

And who was the that "someone?"

You claim to have a good memory of your many years in this hobby. Heck, you were even on that very same Laser Pro Park Forum thread, as your old Ford_Focus_05 alias ( ref: http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=250 ).

And for those of you who need/require the history, at that time, Audi Quattro was known on the LPP Support Forums as LPP ver. Ghost Recon. [ Want proof of this? Just look at any of his posts where the word "Audi" was mentioned, he'll go into detail about his beloved Audi. ]

I don't think that it's deniable that the "someone" named was the GOL, nor that the test that was referred to was this one:

Guys of LIDAR - Laser Jammer Test - March 2007

Isn't it funny, how, at the time that this all happened, The Goons, who were then active LPP supporters, all said that it wouldn't matter, that the 100 PPS Ultralyte variant was so rare in the US as to be nonexistent.... and furthermore accused of the person who initiated the thread itself as having "an agenda" - someone who, no less, was a part of a group-buy that took delivery of no less than 15 (fifteen) total units of the LPP.

That was, actually, prior to the GOL test.

Afterwards:

http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=223
http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=139
http://www.kmph.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=210

Notice how Audi (aka Ghost Recon) downplays the then-clear "fault" of the LPP given to the North-American market....

But this, of course, was proven wrong by community input, on a thread addressing just this issue (the prevalence of 100 PPS Ultralyte units in the US, which may still be in-use) on RD.net.

All of which was seminal in forcing LPP/KMPH to take remedial action in sending "100 PPS UL enabled" units our way (where previously, we in North America were sold the version of the LPP which was "safetied" against the Jenoptik devices a variant which we shared with the EU market due to concerns for the LaserPatrol in that region).

So now, after switching allegiances, they go, suddenly, from framing everything in-favor of the LPP - everything from belittling the significance/penetrance of the 100 PPS UL in the North-America (and most specifically, the US) to blaming the GOL and others who even questioned the LPP (pre-revision) performance as having some sort of "agenda" - to literally attacking everything that they at first defended, after going over to the LaserStar camp.

Not whitewashing the situation at all, right, Subie?

No way that I should doubt either The Goons' words, or LJT, right?

And they go from praising LPP's response to the North-American concern, as seen in those very threads - which took a very reasonable, IMHO, approx. one and a half months, for the revised, 100 PPS UL enabled units to come from their UK manufacture to reach the first batch of stateside hobbyists who sought the upgrade [and here, note that it's been nearly one and a half months since the TruSpeed threat, now, and while LPP certainly has not yet posed a response to this threat, neither has LaserStar yet demonstrated their ability to respond, either - in my eyes, to be fair to all parties involved, shouldn't LJT also now criticize LaserStar in "taking forever" to properly respond to this new and very real threat, here in the US? and yes, there have been sightings of the TruSpeed, in-use, in CT, OH, and CA, already] - to publically blasting the LPP, once they've disavowed themselves of that product, and moved on to the LaserStar.

Yep, you got me, Subie. You said that I missed a lot of things in the Blog.

Guess what, I re-read it yet one more time, and that's what caught my eye, this time.

In addition to all of the other inconsistencies, lies, and distortions of the truth that I've pointed out about their various Blog entries, I now have yet another piece of evidence.

Thanks for prompting me to go back, and to read in even more detail.

Care to explain away this one?

---

Don't worry about explaining your responses as Ford_Focus, Subie, just follow the logic above, and tell me why, you think, that the LJT crew/The Goons did what they did, regarding just this specific 100 PPS Ultralyte/LPP issue.

Explain the logic of their actions to me. To all of us.

You ask us not to trust the GOL.

Fine.

But in this above scenario, The Goons/LJT themselves take evidence directly from the GOL to use against the LPP.

What are we to make of this.

And even if we discount that, we still cannot overlook the lies that The Goons/LJT put forward in this very specific case. Lies which attack what they'd said, themselves, just months prior.

So, Subie, how, given all these inconsistencies, can I have any trust, at all, in The Goons/LJT ?

You can send your PM to me later, Subie. Take your time composing it, I'd like to hear an accurate story.

Instead, respond to this post, first - publically, here.

I think *everyone* would want to see this one.

[Subie_07]

TSI...


I am going to make this quick cause I do not have a lot of time.

Frankly, I have said it before... I can not answer for their actions...

And mainly when have I directly said "Trust LJTs"

Here is my comment on all that.

I do not care... I do not... They do not influence enough people for me to really care... and thats just how I view it.

Im not giving them a pass.. I just do not care. Sorry... if thats not what you are looking for in a response thats just how I see it.

[TSi+WRX]

I agree, Subie, you've never asked us, explicitly, to trust The Goons or LJT.

I apologize, most sincerely, for indeed, that was never one of your explicit claims:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Im not saying trust Audi and JTW... Im saying don't lay your faith in anything unless you have tested it yourself and you yourself have seen down the barrel of a laser gun. This is where I have been burned before.

As far as GOL goes, I do not trust them. They all have pretty much taken a bribe in some format or other... I also know that they said no retail people would be there at the test this year... BUT YET ... Ivan was there... yet again... I also find it remarkable that Ivan's product did the best... ALSO has anyone seen the videos? Nothing... I also know the whole board over there Pushes the LI like crazy... so forgive me for questioning the results... at least LJTs post up videos with a IR shot and through the scope...

TSi your a pretty stand up guy and Im not attacking you or anything like that... at least you see that everything should be taken with a grain of salt ... and everything should be questioned...

Instead, you've actually explicitly said that you're not asking us to trust those sources.

I'm willing to accept that.

But bear with me.

You ask us to question everything.

You say, on the issue of trust:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

And as far as the issue of trust goes...
GOL has too many connection not to have a conflict of interest, and people put so much power in their hands, that its along the lines of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" And I guess not many people see how much power they have. I guarantee that Ivan sells will go up atleast 10% because of this test.
This is a VERY DANGEROUS power that the GOL has. Where as you have LJT... people already do not trust them and yet they still have a site and videos. They dont have Manufactures come to test or have people that sale multiple products come to their test. So as much as power as LJT has... why worry about it... Let them make all the claims they want... they can influence a few people ... GOL.... they influence a whole industry. So when you take a step back and look at the big picture... I would be less likely to trust GOL then LJT... And if you say, well they have not done anything right now to misplace my trust. Then you just missed my point, and you need to understand that when the market is so small like this one... and you have a group that can make you money and make 90% of the market buy a single product... just ask yourself... how much money would you pay to have that product be yours... especially if your their to tweek it and improve it.

Thats the kind of power they have.

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

I agree completely - but on the flip side of this logic, it should be said that the standards which applies to one group should not be overlooked of the other.

Yes, LJT may not be as well-recognized, as well-thought-of, nor have as much influence as the GOL, but that should not give them any passes.

The standards that applies to one *must* apply to the other, and to say that The Goons behind LJT are to somehow be exempt from the standards of conflict-of-interest that you're insisting of the GOL is simply flawed thinking.

Similarly, one must apply the same critical thinking when evaluating the testing that comes from LJT.

To ask us of one but not the other, it's not only unfair, but completely illogical.

"Why worry about it [LJT]," you ask?

Why not just give them the free pass to say what they want to say, without criticism from the community?

The answer, to anyone who can think for themselves, cricically and properly, is readily obvious.

Subie, what you're asking us to do is to turn sheep, and just blindly accept the words from LJT, while critically dissecting everything that comes from the GOL.

At the same time, you're asking us to focus on the industry ties and monetary/non-monetary compensation given to the GOL for its testing, while again, completely ignoring the same of LJT.

That's clearly a set of double-standards.

If that's not Goon thinking, I don't know what is.

You said:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

And sense this is the only real test that the laser star has been in, I will be looking forward to somepeople buying some or if you drive an Audi or BMW sign up for a free single head... and get it for free once you get it test it.

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

^ So that doesn't somehow affect the testing, in the way that you and the rest of The Goons perceive bias/conflict-of-interest?

How does that work, logically?

Wouldn't this be akin to "taking a bribe," as you've put it - for *even if* the tester returned with less-than-stellar results, the item was still obtained free-of-charge.

Why the double-standard, here?

But let's forget about the double-standard, for a moment.

It's rather sad - and I'm speaking these words in all sincerity - that no-one in the community has yet truly independently tested the LaserStar.

But at the same time, say what you and the rest of The Goons about the Laser Interceptor results from the GOL, but it's been proven by many individual and independent hobbyists - some who would have liked, for nothing more, to again burn the LI group for having taken so long to complete the MazdaForums "Group Buy" by having the ability to prove that their units did *not* work as-advertised as a "true-JTFG device" - time and again, that the LI, the production version, really does perform as well as the GOL tests show.

And at the same time, the GOL's results for the Blinder as well as the ZR4 are further corroboration of other independent community results - NOT what was hailed by either their manufacturers/distributors/retailers/resellers nor those with further ties in the industry, such as Radar Roy.

Logically, thus, the argument that, somehow, the GOL improperly skewed their data in-favor of the LI? - it just doesn't hold water.

The *only* valid claim that The Goons - or anyone, for that matter - may make would be that the GOL's data for the LaserStar was inaccurate.

All of the other data fits with current community/independent data.

And it is only the lack of such for the LaserStar, combined with the *personal-level* conflict-of-interest between the GOL and The Goons, that *potentially* taints that SPECIFIC set of data.

That is the *only* logical argument that can be made, when examining the GOL data.

You asked:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Let me ask you a question... Have you actually read the information and blogs on LJTs? Their is a lot of interesting information on LJTs that is not talked about ... and I am not going to tell you but everything important about the Laser Star is on that website... and if you truly have you would be intrigued at some of the comments about the Laser Star... at least I would find them really interesting. Thats all I am saying...

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Yes, actually, I have.

And also, just as honestly, after your prompting here, I went back, and re-read all of the entries, yet again.

There's honestly nothing there to be intrigued about.

And I've responded, more than once, on various Forums, about many of the inaccuracies and perversion of information that has taken place within some of those very Blog entries.

There's nothing there that presents any sort of mystery.

To which you then said:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Then either you think its a lie or you missed it...

Even discounting what I'd posted here on RR.net (which was deleted, along with the entire "Consumer Warning" thread that was authored by one of The Goons) before, and even discounting any other of their Blog entries' various inconsistencies or inaccuracies that I've debated in the past - did I really miss anything?

What I cited, just above, regarding the 100 PPS Ultralyte issue.

Is my dissection of the issue a lie?

Or are their claims?

What's your honest answer to just that question - is my dissection of that claim of The Goons/LJT faulty, or is their presentation of that issue at-fault? I'm not asking you to answer for either The Goons or LJT. I'm just asking you if my examination of their claims is logical and reasonable, if what I said was accurate - or are their claims accurate, and thus, by extension, what I propose as my basis of argument, in that specific case, a lie.

You mentioned, back in March:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Im telling you know that LPP is losing ALL of its business and is going under. This started happening even before the laser star was selling.

And yet, the LPP is going strong. After the '07 GOL data was released, they did indeed provide the communities affected with the "100 PPS Ultralyte fix."

Even to this day, LPPs continue to sell here in North America.

To ovencleaner, you said -

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Have you ever had a conversation with Chris? How do you even know his name? And how do you know what he said was lies...

If you want to talk about maturity ... let talk about getting information about someone on hear say... sounds like high school maturity to me...

And again ... how do you know LJT lied... based on what? Hear say?

Again... like I have said before... its a huge band wagon over there thats based on hear say and very limited information...

I'm not on any bandwagons.

And the LPP/100 PPS Ultralyte issue is just one specific example - one that I missed in my previous readings of the LJT Blogs, I'll readily admit - of several such lies that I've pointed out before.

No, you did not ask us to trust LJT nor The Goons but of the LaserStar, specifically, all the evidence that you can cite/present is their data:

CONSUMER ALERT - Certain "Testers" Unethical Radar Detector Reviews - even after your initial claim, back in March, that you'd test the full-retail version of the LaserStar with your PL-II ( CONSUMER ALERT - Certain "Testers" Unethical Radar Detector Reviews ) which, even today, has yet to take place.....

You want us to distrust the GOL.

Fine. I may not be willing to accept that, but for the sake of argument, I'm willing to entertain the logical possibility.

You want us to look at the LaserStar favorably.

But how can we?

Given that you don't want us to trust the GOL - and yet, for the very same reasons (much of what I've re-cited above), we cannot trust the evidence of the LaserStar's supposed worth, from LJT/The Goons, who've behaved dishonorably (Ronin's LPP/ZR3 video, taken for LS) as well as dishonestly (presentation of the LPP/100 PPS UL issue, as well as the many inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the "Consumer Warning" video).

No, you did not ask us to trust The Goons nor LJT.

But by your reasoning, and by the evidence presented here, shouldn't we also be highly critical of their claims, too? and to also apply the same level of doubt and suspicion towards their data - not only of the LaserStar, but *all* of their tested units and results?

If you do not care, as you insist that you don't, then why even bother to defend the LaserStar? particularly in light of all the data which casts doubt and suspicion on the claims by LJT and The Goons - which, ironically, you submit as your proof.

Sure, you did not ask us to trust LJT and The Goons directly.

But by supplying their data in-favor of the defense of what you've cited about the LaserStar, are you not, by proxy, asking that of us? Is that not the logical conclusion we are supposed to draw? or is that data of the LaserStar *not* to be trusted?

And if that data is not to be trusted, then what *IS* out there, regarding the LaserStar?

There's certainly no independent hobbyist testing (since you ask us to totally discount the GOL, which, ironically, even though LJT/The Goons so vehemently attack, they used the [i]GOL[/b]'s data on the LPP, to turn around and attack that entity, which they've themselves favored and lobbied heavily for, immediately before they jumped ship for the LaserStar; disavowing the LPP, literally, overnight) of the LaserStar.....

And if we really wanted to carry things *that* far - you ask us not to believe GOL's past data of the LI, because it was a beta unit. You ask us not to believe GOL's currrent data of the LI, because they have ties to Ivan.

Yet, the only proof that you can supply, yourself, of the LaserStar's performance is via a beta unit - supplied to you by its manufacturer.

Where is the logic, there?

All that I've seen from you, Subie is just a bunch of doublethink, asking us to accept the things that you accept, and question the things that you question - to the exclusion of all logic and all available data.

---

And I'm also still waiting on this:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

I will explain my questions in a PM...

You say you don't have the time to answer my post above.

But instead you make contributions to another thread?

Why dodge the issues here?

[Subie_07]

Ok...

I did not say DISTRUST the GOL I said question... and there is a difference.
And if you read the PM I sent you, it would make much more sense when I say question things...

Also I never said favor the Laser Star... I have just stated that this is a good jammer on the market and the GOLs test on it is not a true representation of its performance...

I also say that the LPP is a good jammer...
__________________________________________________ ______________

LJTs vs GOL.... Lets put this "DoubleThinking" to rest.

I have sited the LJTs vidoes ... because... well they are good videos... they show the IR cam and through the hud shooting... and to me they are legit...
You can see everything... can you fake videos... yes... but that would be just way over the top for those videos... Cause if you notice even the audio sinks up... so you can tell its the same thing from 2 different angles.

GOL... all you have is data... not videos nothing... all your doing is taking their word for it... they have absolutely nothing to prove the test results... you do not know if someone is shooting a second gun from the woods making the jammer fail because you can not jam more then one gun at a time. You just do not know...

In neither of these statements I have said do not this or do this...

I just have shown appreciation of videos... Does this mean that I favor LJTs over GOL... not exactly... I will tell you I do not favor GOL at all... I will tell you LJTs do not exactly have a straight record but the videos are very well put together.
__________________________________________________ ______________

So when I said... LPP will be going under... Pretty much stated that they have lost alot of retailers... (Which they have) and even more so because of the LI and Laser Star, Taking business and retailers who generate business for LPP... it is only a matter of time before they will either have to lower their prices and up the effort on making a better jammer... or they will go under... but this has no reflection on their jammers performance which I will state is good.
__________________________________________________ ______________

I will test the Laser Star when I get it ... but I have yet to receive mine yet. __________________________________________________ ______________

Overall, if I was to be fair on both sides... the ultimate conclusion would be to say ... the Laser Star is still up for debate on performance... and I would be ok with that... EXCEPT that no one would look at it that way... why... cause of GOL...

We both have the same argument ... except your argument is with LJTs and mine is with GOL.... More information about LJT is out their cause they are not controlling a forum and every direction it swings... unlike the GOL... So you question motives and everything else... but I also question for the same reason but information is limited and contained... much like the government.
__________________________________________________ ______________

If I left something out just ask.

[TSi+WRX]

I apologize for the late reply - as you know, I've been having some troubles logging-on from my university server, as of the last two days.

----

I did not say DISTRUST the GOL I said question... and there is a difference.
And if you read the PM I sent you, it would make much more sense when I say question things...