Escort Passport 9500ci or Laser Interceptor

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

And the Laser Star has been around for more then a year... they just started up big productions early this year... So they have been around alot longer then you think...

And so has Laser Interceptor, in its previous iterations.

But neither of that really proves anything - it's the years-on-road and miles-on-road in mass-produced, production retail, format (and it cannot be denied that the LaserStar was only sold to the mass US public since last March/April, starting with the efforts of LaserJammerTests) that really matters (and to-wit, wasn't one of The Goons' main complaints about the LI and its initial testing by the GOL that it wasn't a mass-produced, full-retail version - so how come there can be criticism on one hand, when used in reference to its competitors, but that same criteria is used in its favor [to denote the amount of time that it's "been around"] when its proponents want to? is that fair?), and when it comes to this, no-one except Escort and Blinder, currently, has anything even remotely approaching acceptable "data."

So that rebuttal, Subie, was full of holes in its logic.....

But I commend you in that, for once, you answered a question directly - and did not try to deflect it with another question, or totally ignore it outright.

[Subie_07]

TSI... You are taking what I said and stretching it out too far... all I said was you mistake the Laser Star for how long it has been on the road... I said nothing of comparing the Laser Star to the LI, EXCEPT on the fact that LI users Silicone and LS uses Epoxy and what that means to buyers and the effects it can have... You on the other hand stretched my comment to a comparison which it was not.

And NO your information is wrong again... the Laser Star was selling several months before the Review of LJTs... It had changed manufactures about 3 to 4 months prior to the review... so it was well into production at that point... and again I am not comparing it to the LI, I am correcting you on your information...

As far as on the Road Driving I agree ... only time will tell... but I have never seen any better build quality then the Laser Star. The LI also has pretty good build quality. So only time will tell...

You say there is holes in my argument ... but really you just stretch my words to be something they are not and create your own holes... Please next time ... just take what I said and do not assume anything else...

I always have answers TSI... I do not always wish to share them... I have my reasons and you can not convince me otherwise.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

And so has Laser Interceptor, in its previous iterations.

But neither of that really proves anything - it's the years-on-road and miles-on-road in mass-produced, production retail, format (and it cannot be denied that the LaserStar was only sold to the mass US public since last March/April, starting with the efforts of LaserJammerTests) that really matters (and to-wit, wasn't one of The Goons' main complaints about the LI and its initial testing by the GOL that it wasn't a mass-produced, full-retail version - so how come there can be criticism on one hand, when used in reference to its competitors, but that same criteria is used in its favor [to denote the amount of time that it's "been around"] when its proponents want to? is that fair?), and when it comes to this, no-one except Escort and Blinder, currently, has anything even remotely approaching acceptable "data."

So that rebuttal, Subie, was full of holes in its logic.....

But I commend you in that, for once, you answered a question directly - and did not try to deflect it with another question, or totally ignore it outright.

[Subie_07]

Also I have heard several problems with condensation on the inside of Blinder heads... So they have had issues...

Escort I have not head of any issues...

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

TSI... You are taking what I said and stretching it out too far... all I said was you mistake the Laser Star for how long it has been on the road... I said nothing of comparing the Laser Star to the LI, EXCEPT on the fact that LI users Silicone and LS uses Epoxy and what that means to buyers and the effects it can have... You on the other hand stretched my comment to a comparison which it was not.

Ah, then I apologize. I did indeed (mis)read your comment as a comparison. You specifically brought up two items - LI and LaserStar. If I were not to read as a comparison, then what? I hope you can see where we miscommunicated.

So the LaserStar uses epoxy as a sealant between the outer "glare/shield-lens" and the physical body of the unit? That is definitely something I did not know, thank you for educating me on that one.

The problem, however, remains - epoxy still does not solve the weathersealing issue, which was explored in-depth on an RD.net posting (specifying no particular jammer, just an academic discussion by various materials [and other] engineers as well as those with professional/academic experience detailing various "glues," as to what might be best), as it, too, as with everything else, expands and contracts, and still suffers the problem of needing to achieve "perfect" bonding between a metal surface, and one that's plastic (or glass). Both pose as problems.

The other question is, then, how automotive components - such as headlights, as just one example - achieve weathertight sealing, for many, many, many years, even though they do use silicone sealant. And even more so in that in many cases, these sealants' bonds can be broken, rejoined - and the cycle repeated many times - without the need for reapplication of the silicone sealant? Such a modification, "headlight clearing," is a very popular one in the Subaru community, and many of us have opened our headlight units two, three, four (myself), and upwards of over half-a-dozen times, without the need to even re-apply sealant, and yet, have maintained weathertight assemblies even after extensive modifications in this area.

Why the problems, then, with these jammer heads?

Alternatively, did you mean epoxy behind the "glare/shield" overlens? If that's the case, then the LPP and AL both serve as evidence that a problem remains - for despite the use of an epoxy fill in an attempt to put the critical electronics behind a weatherproof seal, it was still seen, by fellow hobbyists' pictures on RD.net, that moisture ingress was clearly possible, and resulted in the destruction of such units.

Again, no perfect solutions, yet.

And NO your information is wrong again... the Laser Star was selling several months before the Review of LJTs... It had changed manufactures about 3 to 4 months prior to the review... so it was well into production at that point... and again I am not comparing it to the LI, I am correcting you on your information...

Then how come no one in the mass community, either Stateside or in Europe, had any of these early units?

And if the manufacturer changed, isn't that yet another potential area of concern? and again one which The Goons brought up for exploitation during the time of the MazdaForums "Group Buy," when Ivan and the LI Mother Team cited that they were switching manufacture? The question that was posed by The Goons, then, was one of "how can the new manufacture be guaranteed to be of proper quality?" Doesn't this same question then apply, in the same manner, to the LaserStar's change of manufacturer?

Why, again, the double-standard? Why, again, the faulted logic?

So how early, exactly, were LaserStar units, regardless of manufacturer, placed on the mass market?

And agian, how do we account for this change-of-manufacture?

And if these "other iterations" of the LaserStar are to be "counted" in terms of the product's measureable lifespan, then should we also not count the fact that even the present version of the LI was readily available to our overseas brothers, many months in advance of their stateside presentation?

And also similarly, how far back should we trace the roots of the LI? how many iterations should we stake, as the terminus for our duration-on-market/lifespan data?

You say there is holes in my argument ... but really you just stretch my words to be something they are not and create your own holes... Please next time ... just take what I said and do not assume anything else...

I'm not assuming anything else - and I'm not "stretching" your words.

I'm pointing out the obvious holes that exist, which may be due to miscommunication, or, alternatively, details that you've left out (and are then coming back to fill). It may be holes of omission, or, alternatively, holes in the logic of the presentation/argument, such as those which I've asked questions of, above.

I'm not a fan, as you know, of taking words out of context.

I simply respond to what you've said, nothing more.

I always have answers TSI... I do not always wish to share them... I have my reasons and you can not convince me otherwise.

That's all fine and well - but your not being forthcoming with such critical information simply invites mistrust and, as you've seen above with just our last set of interaction, miscommunication.

How does that serve anyone in the community? And how does that go any length towards restoring anyone's faith in The Goons or LaserStar?

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Also I have heard several problems with condensation on the inside of Blinder heads... So they have had issues...

Escort I have not head of any issues...

Ah, here, please allow me to correct as well as educate you. I've been a long-time user of the ZR3, with my own purchase of them dating back to their origin.

Escort's first run of ZR3's were plagued with head weatherseal issues as well. Mostly in terms of its forward two heads. Such issues did not come to-light until after nearly a year's worth of road-service.

Again, without actual time/miles-on-road, it was simply impossible to have foreseen such potential issues. But those lessons were hard-learned, and Escort rectified such concerns.

Similarly and quite sadly (and quite surprisingly to me, actually, as I thought that they'd perfected the issue, having learned, as I cited above, from their previous mistakes), it was again seen with the ZR4 that more than a handful of initial-batch units reported with faulty rear-head sealant issues. Some of the first documented such failures appeared from/were reported from within the core of RD.net enthusiasts, such as djrams.

As for the Blinder, no, it's track-record is not perfect - akin to with Escort - but for the number of fauts that have been reported of both the 0-suffix and the new 5-suffix units, compared to the number of years and miles-on-road that these units have seen, it's hard to say that their quality has been anything less than stellar.

The true test is time-on-road and miles-on-road, and aside from Escort and Blinder, no-one can truly say that they've had quite as good of a run - or as long of a run.

No, their records are not perfect, but it's definitely head-and-shoulders better, compared to what else is still out there, and what has come and gone.

[Subie_07]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Ah, then I apologize. I did indeed (mis)read your comment as a comparison. You specifically brought up two items - LI and LaserStar. If I were not to read as a comparison, then what? I hope you can see where we miscommunicated.

So the LaserStar uses epoxy as a sealant between the outer "glare/shield-lens" and the physical body of the unit? That is definitely something I did not know, thank you for educating me on that one.

The problem, however, remains - epoxy still does not solve the weathersealing issue, which was explored in-depth on an RD.net posting (specifying no particular jammer, just an academic discussion by various materials [and other] engineers as well as those with professional/academic experience detailing various "glues," as to what might be best), as it, too, as with everything else, expands and contracts, and still suffers the problem of needing to achieve "perfect" bonding between a metal surface, and one that's plastic (or glass). Both pose as problems.

All the epoxy does is further protects the components internally if you have a weather sealing issue... its not 100% perfect, but if done correctly by the manufacture it can save the life of your jammer for quite some time!

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

The other question is, then, how automotive components - such as headlights, as just one example - achieve weathertight sealing, for many, many, many years, even though they do use silicone sealant. And even more so in that in many cases, these sealants' bonds can be broken, rejoined - and the cycle repeated many times - without the need for reapplication of the silicone sealant? Such a modification, "headlight clearing," is a very popular one in the Subaru community, and many of us have opened our headlight units two, three, four (myself), and upwards of over half-a-dozen times, without the need to even re-apply sealant, and yet, have maintained weathertight assemblies even after extensive modifications in this area.

Why the problems, then, with these jammer heads?

Thats easy... 1 reason. $$$$$$$$$$
Its easy to save several bucks on manufacturing if you use cheaper quality sealant or just use korean style manufacturing... (meaning extreamly cheap... sometimes built buy hand) When you talking about headlights... thats a in house car manufactured part... they save money buy doing it in house... and they also would have hell to pay if they used cheap sealant ... ( Subaru's are some of the best cars period... so using them as an expample isnt fair... ) But really recalls would be made and that would cost them more money... now on a smaller scale is jammer companies... if the life expectancy is 2 years and you are only warranted for 1 year, thats called job security... and thats just the nature of business...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Alternatively, did you mean epoxy behind the "glare/shield" overlens? If that's the case, then the LPP and AL both serve as evidence that a problem remains - for despite the use of an epoxy fill in an attempt to put the critical electronics behind a weatherproof seal, it was still seen, by fellow hobbyists' pictures on RD.net, that moisture ingress was clearly possible, and resulted in the destruction of such units.

Again, no perfect solutions, yet.

Go back to what I said up top...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Then how come no one in the mass community, either Stateside or in Europe, had any of these early units?

And if the manufacturer changed, isn't that yet another potential area of concern? and again one which The Goons brought up for exploitation during the time of the MazdaForums "Group Buy," when Ivan and the LI Mother Team cited that they were switching manufacture? The question that was posed by The Goons, then, was one of "how can the new manufacture be guaranteed to be of proper quality?" Doesn't this same question then apply, in the same manner, to the LaserStar's change of manufacturer?

Why, again, the double-standard? Why, again, the faulted logic?

I was simply stating that the information you stated was wrong...
And people in Europe had the laser stars early product... but just like most new products had some QC issues... So they changed Manufactures...

....
And let me just say this... You constantly take my words and compare them with things JTW said... on LJTs and say its double standards ... I am not an affiliate of them or Laser Star... So when you say double standards.... thats towards them... I do not represent them or laser star... So again... double standards ... no... I never questioned the manufacture of LI... I do not even know where its manufactured... as long as its not in Taiwan then I wouldn't have any real issues... The problem I have is the use of silicone... over the components... Which I explained my arguments with earlier.

So if you would stop taking my words and comparing them with JTWs and Audi's that would be great thanks...
.....

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

So how early, exactly, were LaserStar units, regardless of manufacturer, placed on the mass market?

And agian, how do we account for this change-of-manufacture?

And if these "other iterations" of the LaserStar are to be "counted" in terms of the product's measureable lifespan, then should we also not count the fact that even the present version of the LI was readily available to our overseas brothers, many months in advance of their stateside presentation?

And also similarly, how far back should we trace the roots of the LI? how many iterations should we stake, as the terminus for our duration-on-market/lifespan data?

Again ... I just stated your info was wrong.
The Laser Star probably first started selling product... probably about 2 years ago...

Now I am not saying that dependability and durability are based off this number I just stated they have been around a lot longer then you stated. Obviously you would go off the current manufacture and the current hardware they were using... which in that sense the current manufacture has been making the current Laser Star for a little over a year...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

I'm not assuming anything else - and I'm not "stretching" your words.

I'm pointing out the obvious holes that exist, which may be due to miscommunication, or, alternatively, details that you've left out (and are then coming back to fill). It may be holes of omission, or, alternatively, holes in the logic of the presentation/argument, such as those which I've asked questions of, above.

I'm not a fan, as you know, of taking words out of context.

I simply respond to what you've said, nothing more.

If I left out information ask me then... do not give an argument for something that has not been said... leave those kinds of attacks for John McCain and Hussein Obama...

That is not fair to me... not that I really care... its just annoying... and I am less likely to respond ... cause sometimes I leave out information on purpose... and somethings I just assume you would know.

I also leave information out of things to protect other peoples reputation... Cause I really do not care about mine... its not like this board has any effect on my real reputation in life...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

That's all fine and well - but your not being forthcoming with such critical information simply invites mistrust and, as you've seen above with just our last set of interaction, miscommunication.

How does that serve anyone in the community? And how does that go any length towards restoring anyone's faith in The Goons or LaserStar?

Thats not my problem... they should put themselves in a position to get information like I did... I am not really concerned with the "community" its all distorted and biased... and if someone goes against the God of all test on personal experience he or she is wrong... I talk about the laser star and so I am considered a "Goon" and I am neutral about LTJs and JTW and Audi... I am part of that group...

The Truth is as a person I am always apart of Minorities...

Politically, I am a Ron Paul supporter!
Religiously, I am apart of a Minority version of Christianity that takes away all the guilt that typical churches put on people...
I drive a Subaru...

I could go on... The problem is people do not check their information ... and I know I do not help when I will not share my information... but hey I found it... why can't everyone else... CAUSE THEY ARE LAZY! and they do not spend time actually putting themselves in a position to have contacts... or check out info for themselves...

I also am not going to tell people information that others are not ready to give out ... thats not how I am.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Ah, here, please allow me to correct as well as educate you. I've been a long-time user of the ZR3, with my own purchase of them dating back to their origin.

Escort's first run of ZR3's were plagued with head weatherseal issues as well. Mostly in terms of its forward two heads. Such issues did not come to-light until after nearly a year's worth of road-service.

Again, without actual time/miles-on-road, it was simply impossible to have foreseen such potential issues. But those lessons were hard-learned, and Escort rectified such concerns.

Similarly and quite sadly (and quite surprisingly to me, actually, as I thought that they'd perfected the issue, having learned, as I cited above, from their previous mistakes), it was again seen with the ZR4 that more than a handful of initial-batch units reported with faulty rear-head sealant issues. Some of the first documented such failures appeared from/were reported from within the core of RD.net enthusiasts, such as djrams.

As for the Blinder, no, it's track-record is not perfect - akin to with Escort - but for the number of fauts that have been reported of both the 0-suffix and the new 5-suffix units, compared to the number of years and miles-on-road that these units have seen, it's hard to say that their quality has been anything less than stellar.

The true test is time-on-road and miles-on-road, and aside from Escort and Blinder, no-one can truly say that they've had quite as good of a run - or as long of a run.

No, their records are not perfect, but it's definitely head-and-shoulders better, compared to what else is still out there, and what has come and gone.

Ah... well its hard to play catch up when you are still in business and you were one of the first jammers out...

............................
Let me ask you a question... Have you actually read the information and blogs on LJTs? Their is a lot of interesting information on LJTs that is not talked about ... and I am not going to tell you but everything important about the Laser Star is on that website... and if you truly have you would be intrigued at some of the comments about the Laser Star... at least I would find them really interesting. Thats all I am saying...

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

All the epoxy does is further protects the components internally if you have a weather sealing issue... its not 100% perfect, but if done correctly by the manufacture it can save the life of your jammer for quite some time!

Agreed - nothing is perfect over an indefinite and infinite period of time. Exposure will take its toll, no matter what, and the road-vehicle environment, particularly externally, is very harsh indeed.

Question remains, though - where is the epoxy seal you spoke of, is it between the external glare/shield lens and the main external casing, or simply the interior barrier?

Thats easy... 1 reason. $$$$$$$$$$
Its easy to save several bucks on manufacturing if you use cheaper quality sealant or just use korean style manufacturing... (meaning extreamly cheap... sometimes built buy hand) When you talking about headlights... thats a in house car manufactured part... they save money buy doing it in house... and they also would have hell to pay if they used cheap sealant ... ( Subaru's are some of the best cars period... so using them as an expample isnt fair... ) But really recalls would be made and that would cost them more money... now on a smaller scale is jammer companies... if the life expectancy is 2 years and you are only warranted for 1 year, thats called job security... and thats just the nature of business...

I can totally agree with that analysis (although I wouldn't go so far as to say that our Subarus are superior, "automotively" speaking - although I do share quite a bit of the Subaru pride of ownership, I know well that many of our parts are not "in house," and that much is actually sourced from OEM manufacturers, some of which may not be of top quality [look into the complaints generated by many of the "Subaru Performance Tuning" (SPT) parts, as well as continuing issues with the factory engine management, particularly in forced-induction vehicles, and yes, this includes even the current generation models]), I do not agree with the end conclusion.

I think that this is a simple engineering issue - and that with the proper eye towards how these units are constructed, not only could money be saved, but also the units guaranteed better weathersealing.

RE: location of epoxy sealant on LaserStar heads

Go back to what I said up top...

I did, but it still doesn't answer the question of where, exactly, the epoxy is used.

I was simply stating that the information you stated was wrong...
And people in Europe had the laser stars early product... but just like most new products had some QC issues... So they changed Manufactures...
....
And let me just say this... You constantly take my words and compare them with things JTW said... on LJTs and say its double standards ... I am not an affiliate of them or Laser Star... So when you say double standards.... thats towards them... I do not represent them or laser star... So again... double standards ... no... I never questioned the manufacture of LI... I do not even know where its manufactured... as long as its not in Taiwan then I wouldn't have any real issues... The problem I have is the use of silicone... over the components... Which I explained my arguments with earlier.

So if you would stop taking my words and comparing them with JTWs and Audi's that would be great thanks...
.....

When I speak of The Goons, as you will see, I specifically use their name.

However, in the specific case above, what you have said parallels their exact line.

You're using the same double standards - you say above that the LaserStar started earlier in Europe ( and thank you, yet again, for correcting me on that ) - but so did LI, both in its current iteration, as well as in its former.

If we are to judge one by a certain set of criteria, we should do the same of the other(s).

Now I am not saying that dependability and durability are based off this number I just stated they have been around a lot longer then you stated. Obviously you would go off the current manufacture and the current hardware they were using... which in that sense the current manufacture has been making the current Laser Star for a little over a year...

^ But even by that standard, which you cited above as:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

the Laser Star was selling several months before the Review of LJTs... It had changed manufactures about 3 to 4 months prior to the review... so it was well into production at that point...

....that's still at least two months less than a full year, and, at-best, would place it on the same frame-of-reference as the first stateside LI units (which actually were SOLD stateside, and which, again, even though you said that the same manufacture of the LaserStar had been in-use overseas since that time, it wasn't until March of this past year that LJT/The Goons started pushing the LaserStar, actively, and the product actually reached stateside end-users in mass-retail format, and which, also, would bring up the LI being in-use in Europe and the Far East several months earlier).

Again, a fair and equal comparison should be made of *ALL* products.

If I left out information ask me then... do not give an argument for something that has not been said... leave those kinds of attacks for John McCain and Hussein Obama...

That is not fair to me... not that I really care... its just annoying... and I am less likely to respond ... cause sometimes I leave out information on purpose... and somethings I just assume you would know.

But as you can see above, there are definitely things which I do not know - the same with your incomplete info. on the fault of the Escort products.

This is why in a hobbyist community, we should share information and data truthfully and without reservations - so that we may help each other.

I also leave information out of things to protect other peoples reputation... Cause I really do not care about mine... its not like this board has any effect on my real reputation in life...

True, this Forum does not have any bearings on your "real life." Indeed, it's just a cyber existence. But still, it does bear on your standings in this specific hobbyist community, and I do think that, in and of itself, is worth protecting.

Thats not my problem... they should put themselves in a position to get information like I did... I am not really concerned with the "community" its all distorted and biased... and if someone goes against the God of all test on personal experience he or she is wrong... I talk about the laser star and so I am considered a "Goon" and I am neutral about LTJs and JTW and Audi... I am part of that group...

The Truth is as a person I am always apart of Minorities...

Politically, I am a Ron Paul supporter!
Religiously, I am apart of a Minority version of Christianity that takes away all the guilt that typical churches put on people...
I drive a Subaru...

I could go on... The problem is people do not check their information ... and I know I do not help when I will not share my information... but hey I found it... why can't everyone else... CAUSE THEY ARE LAZY! and they do not spend time actually putting themselves in a position to have contacts... or check out info for themselves...

I also am not going to tell people information that others are not ready to give out ... thats not how I am.

Again, that's all well and good, and I respect you for your convictions.

But it does bring to the forefront the question of: "if this person knows so much about LaserStar, but he's refusing to answer these questions/concerns, then doesn't that action - or lack thereof - imply that there's something to-hide, and that something is not right?"

Ah... well its hard to play catch up when you are still in business and you were one of the first jammers out...

Indeed.

With the resources that Escort has, it should do nothing but lead the class.

I've repeatedly lamented the fact that they don't seem to have devoted their full effort into the Shifter - and have repeatedly expressed my dis-satisfaction at this fact.

Again, in being fair to *all* parties, those issues should be said, of Escort.

Let me ask you a question... Have you actually read the information and blogs on LJTs? Their is a lot of interesting information on LJTs that is not talked about ... and I am not going to tell you but everything important about the Laser Star is on that website... and if you truly have you would be intrigued at some of the comments about the Laser Star... at least I would find them really interesting. Thats all I am saying...

Yes, actually, I have.

And also, just as honestly, after your prompting here, I went back, and re-read all of the entries, yet again.

There's honestly nothing there to be intrigued about.

And I've responded, more than once, on various Forums, about many of the inaccuracies and perversion of information that has taken place within some of those very Blog entries.

There's nothing there that presents any sort of mystery.

[CJR238]

Man, TSi+WRX & Subie_07, you guys love to type...

[Subie_07]

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Agreed - nothing is perfect over an indefinite and infinite period of time. Exposure will take its toll, no matter what, and the road-vehicle environment, particularly externally, is very harsh indeed.

Question remains, though - where is the epoxy seal you spoke of, is it between the external glare/shield lens and the main external casing, or simply the interior barrier?

Sorry I thought I said it last time...
It covers the entire circuit board and components with exception of the Tx and Rx Diodes ... of course but even those are partly covered... to protect the soldering and what not.

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

I can totally agree with that analysis (although I wouldn't go so far as to say that our Subarus are superior, "automotively" speaking - although I do share quite a bit of the Subaru pride of ownership, I know well that many of our parts are not "in house," and that much is actually sourced from OEM manufacturers, some of which may not be of top quality [look into the complaints generated by many of the "Subaru Performance Tuning" (SPT) parts, as well as continuing issues with the factory engine management, particularly in forced-induction vehicles, and yes, this includes even the current generation models]), I do not agree with the end conclusion.

I think that this is a simple engineering issue - and that with the proper eye towards how these units are constructed, not only could money be saved, but also the units guaranteed better weathersealing.

RE: location of epoxy sealant on LaserStar heads


I did, but it still doesn't answer the question of where, exactly, the epoxy is used.

I am realistic of my Subaru... even though I am not FI... It has been the best car I have ever drove and I have driven my fair share... so I am even more proud of my Subie...

But I know the limitations and I know of the complaints... I also know that its hard to make an engine that can take the engine load that boost adds and its hard to keep it running, but Subaru does a damn good job of it...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

When I speak of The Goons, as you will see, I specifically use their name.

However, in the specific case above, what you have said parallels their exact line.

You're using the same double standards - you say above that the LaserStar started earlier in Europe ( and thank you, yet again, for correcting me on that ) - but so did LI, both in its current iteration, as well as in its former.

If we are to judge one by a certain set of criteria, we should do the same of the other(s).



^ But even by that standard, which you cited above as:



....that's still at least two months less than a full year, and, at-best, would place it on the same frame-of-reference as the first stateside LI units (which actually were SOLD stateside, and which, again, even though you said that the same manufacture of the LaserStar had been in-use overseas since that time, it wasn't until March of this past year that LJT/The Goons started pushing the LaserStar, actively, and the product actually reached stateside end-users in mass-retail format, and which, also, would bring up the LI being in-use in Europe and the Far East several months earlier).

Again, a fair and equal comparison should be made of *ALL* products.

I know that the LI starting in EU... but I did not know when... so if its the same then, then great... But silicone versus epoxy ... epoxy wins every time! outside weather sealing ... still TBD... that is not what I am saying... I guess cause I never explained

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

But as you can see above, there are definitely things which I do not know - the same with your incomplete info. on the fault of the Escort products.

This is why in a hobbyist community, we should share information and data truthfully and without reservations - so that we may help each other.

True...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

True, this Forum does not have any bearings on your "real life." Indeed, it's just a cyber existence. But still, it does bear on your standings in this specific hobbyist community, and I do think that, in and of itself, is worth protecting.

Not when the boards are used to just push products... which they are...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Again, that's all well and good, and I respect you for your convictions.

But it does bring to the fore front the question of: "if this person knows so much about Laser Star, but he's refusing to answer these questions/concerns, then doesn't that action - or lack thereof - imply that there's something to-hide, and that something is not right?"

I pretty much have answered the questions about the laser star... its all the political stuff I leave out...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Indeed.

With the resources that Escort has, it should do nothing but lead the class.

I've repeatedly lamented the fact that they don't seem to have devoted their full effort into the Shifter - and have repeatedly expressed my dis-satisfaction at this fact.

Again, in being fair to *all* parties, those issues should be said, of Escort.

I agree...

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Yes, actually, I have.

And also, just as honestly, after your prompting here, I went back, and re-read all of the entries, yet again.

There's honestly nothing there to be intrigued about.

And I've responded, more than once, on various Forums, about many of the inaccuracies and perversion of information that has taken place within some of those very Blog entries.

There's nothing there that presents any sort of mystery.

Then either you think its a lie or you missed it...

[Subie_07]

Originally Posted by CJR238

Man, TSi+WRX & Subie_07, you guys love to type...

Nah... I just have 8 hours to kill Monday - Friday...

[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

It covers the entire circuit board and components with exception of the Tx and Rx Diodes ... of course but even those are partly covered... to protect the soldering and what not.

^ But that's just the same as the AL G8, as well as the LPP - both of which utilize epoxy to effect sealing not only around the transmitting and receiving diodes (more specifically, the optical collimator overlaying this component) as well as to cover the circuitboard - and these examples all have seen both past as well as ongoing weathersealing problems.

And yet, strangely enough, the ZR3 heads, without any type of such circuitboard armor, have seen nearly worry-free performance in this respect, over the course of the last 4 years.

Photographic evidence of such "internal" head configurations for the AL G8, LPP, as well as ZR3 (and even the ZR4) readily exists in the many online sources, available to any hobbyist, and come from varied sources.

As I said prior, it just doesn't make any sense - and that the issue of weathersealing is not isolated to the type of sealant used, but rather, to both that as well as the overall component design.

I am realistic of my Subaru... even though I am not FI... It has been the best car I have ever drove and I have driven my fair share... so I am even more proud of my Subie...

But I know the limitations and I know of the complaints... I also know that its hard to make an engine that can take the engine load that boost adds and its hard to keep it running, but Subaru does a damn good job of it...

Pride of ownership is one thing, but that's approaching being a fanatic, and being blind to faults and shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a very proud Subaru owner.

Neither of our Subarus have ever seen a day - or even an hour - in the shop. Certainly, my religious and rigorous self-maintenance schedule likely helps, but my wife lacks mechanical empathy, and although I admittedly take good care of my car, I'm also not the least demanding driver, either....and it's pushing power levels that's well beyond that of a factory STi (on the same dyno that factory STis put down 200/200 wHP/wTQ, I'm putting down 230/280, and that's on the same day, with runs that took place just minutes after each other).

Quite a bit of my everyday wardrobe (remember, I'm a laboratory scientist, so I can get away with wearing a T-shirt and jeans to my job, just about every day) consists of automotive-related wear, and a lot of that is Subaru related.

I'm well-known in both the local Subaru community as well as on the national scene, in terms of the BL/BP-chassis Legacy community. I've even helped-out random Subaru owners, on-the-road and in parking lots.

Yet, I well know that our vehicles are far from perfect. Of the Legacy, with which I'm more familiar, I can rattle off a near endless list of complaints that I've witnessed.

It's far, far from being the idol that you're making it out to be.

I know that the LI starting in EU... but I did not know when... so if its the same then, then great... But silicone versus epoxy ... epoxy wins every time! outside weather sealing ... still TBD... that is not what I am saying... I guess cause I never explained

I think that the current-generation LI started in Europe and in the Far East just shortly after the 2007 GOL. Several "silent members" on RD.net, beginning that summer, were able to procure grey-market imports from various European sources.... One local performance-auto enthusiast (serious enthusiast - his project-cars were an ongoing list of amazing undertakings and products/results, including a 1000+ wHP Supra and a 700+ wHP S4; and he's well-known in both the local tuner scene as well as in the underground/illegal street-racing scene) was among the first, and invited me to his shop to check out this "marvel of engineering" (his words). It turned out that before I got the chance to take him up on his offer (our family/work schedules conflicted), I obtained my own set, from Elvis.

And as to the epoxy versus silicone - see above.

I honestly hope that the LaserStar (as well as the PASS) have taken to-heart the experiences won by the various iterations of the AL and the LPP, in order to get its weathersealing "right." As we both know, though, only time-on-road and miles-on-road will tell the final story.

It would be better, though, if there was a larger sampling population as well. Unfortuantely, I think, due to the latest GOL testing, this is gonig to be harder to come by, as many consumers are undoubtedly now shying away from the PASS as well as the LaserStar, due to their respective failures in the hands of various hobbyists/hobbyist groups.

I wish that others in the community - known fixtures, not new and unknowns (who could easily be called "shills" and such, even if they truly are not) - would examine the PASS and LaserStar in more detail. But given both the performance results from the various testing sources currently logged (for the PASS), as well as the community's overall gut-reaction to The Goons, I think that this is going to be very, very hard to come by.

Just as I expressed doubts about the performance, as-tested, of the LI by The Goons, I also expressed the same about the performance of the LaserStar as-tested by the GOL. I've said, openly, in all of the communities where I participate, that there's simply too much history to discount, and that due-dliigence demands that such conflicting data be discounted, or at least viewed with caution. At the same time, such critical analysis is only to be fair to both sides of this equation.

And to be fully honest, this "doubt" that I've expressed above is even against what I would deem to be my own personal biases against The Goons, and my own implicit trust in the GOL.

Again, I just want to be fair to both sides - even though in trying to give yet another second-chance to the likes of Audi Quattro goes against every gut-feeling and bone-in-instinct that I have.


RE: Forums' impact on "real-life"

Not when the boards are used to just push products... which they are...

That's certainly true.

But again, the same can and must be said of LaserJammerTests, which poses itself as an unaffiliated and unbiased source of information, but is far from such.

I pretty much have answered the questions about the laser star... its all the political stuff I leave out...

Really?

You did not answer the questions that I posed here:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls

- you answered neither of the questions that I asked, but instead, actually, you replied with comments on the politics between the GOL and The Goons:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls

And again, in this exchange:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls

- you did not answer my questions and comments regarding the use of Ronin's LPP/ZR3 videos in a obviously deceitful manner, nor did you address the question of the conflict of data seen between The Goon's test of the latest K40 offering, versus what Craig Peterson wrote, and instead, the second half of your post was again dedicated solely to the politics at-play, a diatribe against the GOL.

And in this one:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls

- to which crazyVOLVOrob then also expressed his sentiment in wanting to know why [b[Audi Quattro[/b] would try to run a "Group Buy" for the LPP here, and try to incite trouble here with the stateside LPP distributor and site sponsor/vendor LPP Rep/DMI-Sport, just before he went the way of the LaserStar?

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

...before The Goon's ban on the Laser Pro Park Forums ( BTW, care to explain, exactly, what happened, there? why Audi was trying to end-run around go.mouse with a supposed "Group Buy" of LPPs, here, at that time, to also incite trouble with the stateside-authorized LPP reseller and site sponsor Vendor, DMI-Sport? and also care to explain why Audi PM'ed me to try to sell me a LaserStar, even at that early time, while he was still involved on the LPP side? nothing funny going on there, right? )....

This is a point which cVR later reiterated in post #74 - and as a matter of fact, LEADS OFF said post, but yet, it is completely ignored?

Is this perhaps touching on "politics?"

Yes, I think so - but given the political discourses of your previous two replies, why the reluctance to comment on this issue?