[TSi+WRX]

I agree, Subie, you've never asked us, explicitly, to trust The Goons or LJT.

I apologize, most sincerely, for indeed, that was never one of your explicit claims:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Im not saying trust Audi and JTW... Im saying don't lay your faith in anything unless you have tested it yourself and you yourself have seen down the barrel of a laser gun. This is where I have been burned before.

As far as GOL goes, I do not trust them. They all have pretty much taken a bribe in some format or other... I also know that they said no retail people would be there at the test this year... BUT YET ... Ivan was there... yet again... I also find it remarkable that Ivan's product did the best... ALSO has anyone seen the videos? Nothing... I also know the whole board over there Pushes the LI like crazy... so forgive me for questioning the results... at least LJTs post up videos with a IR shot and through the scope...

TSi your a pretty stand up guy and Im not attacking you or anything like that... at least you see that everything should be taken with a grain of salt ... and everything should be questioned...

Instead, you've actually explicitly said that you're not asking us to trust those sources.

I'm willing to accept that.

But bear with me.

You ask us to question everything.

You say, on the issue of trust:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

And as far as the issue of trust goes...
GOL has too many connection not to have a conflict of interest, and people put so much power in their hands, that its along the lines of "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" And I guess not many people see how much power they have. I guarantee that Ivan sells will go up atleast 10% because of this test.
This is a VERY DANGEROUS power that the GOL has. Where as you have LJT... people already do not trust them and yet they still have a site and videos. They dont have Manufactures come to test or have people that sale multiple products come to their test. So as much as power as LJT has... why worry about it... Let them make all the claims they want... they can influence a few people ... GOL.... they influence a whole industry. So when you take a step back and look at the big picture... I would be less likely to trust GOL then LJT... And if you say, well they have not done anything right now to misplace my trust. Then you just missed my point, and you need to understand that when the market is so small like this one... and you have a group that can make you money and make 90% of the market buy a single product... just ask yourself... how much money would you pay to have that product be yours... especially if your their to tweek it and improve it.

Thats the kind of power they have.

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

I agree completely - but on the flip side of this logic, it should be said that the standards which applies to one group should not be overlooked of the other.

Yes, LJT may not be as well-recognized, as well-thought-of, nor have as much influence as the GOL, but that should not give them any passes.

The standards that applies to one *must* apply to the other, and to say that The Goons behind LJT are to somehow be exempt from the standards of conflict-of-interest that you're insisting of the GOL is simply flawed thinking.

Similarly, one must apply the same critical thinking when evaluating the testing that comes from LJT.

To ask us of one but not the other, it's not only unfair, but completely illogical.

"Why worry about it [LJT]," you ask?

Why not just give them the free pass to say what they want to say, without criticism from the community?

The answer, to anyone who can think for themselves, cricically and properly, is readily obvious.

Subie, what you're asking us to do is to turn sheep, and just blindly accept the words from LJT, while critically dissecting everything that comes from the GOL.

At the same time, you're asking us to focus on the industry ties and monetary/non-monetary compensation given to the GOL for its testing, while again, completely ignoring the same of LJT.

That's clearly a set of double-standards.

If that's not Goon thinking, I don't know what is.

You said:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

And sense this is the only real test that the laser star has been in, I will be looking forward to somepeople buying some or if you drive an Audi or BMW sign up for a free single head... and get it for free once you get it test it.

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

^ So that doesn't somehow affect the testing, in the way that you and the rest of The Goons perceive bias/conflict-of-interest?

How does that work, logically?

Wouldn't this be akin to "taking a bribe," as you've put it - for *even if* the tester returned with less-than-stellar results, the item was still obtained free-of-charge.

Why the double-standard, here?

But let's forget about the double-standard, for a moment.

It's rather sad - and I'm speaking these words in all sincerity - that no-one in the community has yet truly independently tested the LaserStar.

But at the same time, say what you and the rest of The Goons about the Laser Interceptor results from the GOL, but it's been proven by many individual and independent hobbyists - some who would have liked, for nothing more, to again burn the LI group for having taken so long to complete the MazdaForums "Group Buy" by having the ability to prove that their units did *not* work as-advertised as a "true-JTFG device" - time and again, that the LI, the production version, really does perform as well as the GOL tests show.

And at the same time, the GOL's results for the Blinder as well as the ZR4 are further corroboration of other independent community results - NOT what was hailed by either their manufacturers/distributors/retailers/resellers nor those with further ties in the industry, such as Radar Roy.

Logically, thus, the argument that, somehow, the GOL improperly skewed their data in-favor of the LI? - it just doesn't hold water.

The *only* valid claim that The Goons - or anyone, for that matter - may make would be that the GOL's data for the LaserStar was inaccurate.

All of the other data fits with current community/independent data.

And it is only the lack of such for the LaserStar, combined with the *personal-level* conflict-of-interest between the GOL and The Goons, that *potentially* taints that SPECIFIC set of data.

That is the *only* logical argument that can be made, when examining the GOL data.

You asked:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Let me ask you a question... Have you actually read the information and blogs on LJTs? Their is a lot of interesting information on LJTs that is not talked about ... and I am not going to tell you but everything important about the Laser Star is on that website... and if you truly have you would be intrigued at some of the comments about the Laser Star... at least I would find them really interesting. Thats all I am saying...

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by TSi+WRX

Yes, actually, I have.

And also, just as honestly, after your prompting here, I went back, and re-read all of the entries, yet again.

There's honestly nothing there to be intrigued about.

And I've responded, more than once, on various Forums, about many of the inaccuracies and perversion of information that has taken place within some of those very Blog entries.

There's nothing there that presents any sort of mystery.

To which you then said:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Then either you think its a lie or you missed it...

Even discounting what I'd posted here on RR.net (which was deleted, along with the entire "Consumer Warning" thread that was authored by one of The Goons) before, and even discounting any other of their Blog entries' various inconsistencies or inaccuracies that I've debated in the past - did I really miss anything?

What I cited, just above, regarding the 100 PPS Ultralyte issue.

Is my dissection of the issue a lie?

Or are their claims?

What's your honest answer to just that question - is my dissection of that claim of The Goons/LJT faulty, or is their presentation of that issue at-fault? I'm not asking you to answer for either The Goons or LJT. I'm just asking you if my examination of their claims is logical and reasonable, if what I said was accurate - or are their claims accurate, and thus, by extension, what I propose as my basis of argument, in that specific case, a lie.

You mentioned, back in March:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Im telling you know that LPP is losing ALL of its business and is going under. This started happening even before the laser star was selling.

And yet, the LPP is going strong. After the '07 GOL data was released, they did indeed provide the communities affected with the "100 PPS Ultralyte fix."

Even to this day, LPPs continue to sell here in North America.

To ovencleaner, you said -

Originally Posted by Subie_07

Have you ever had a conversation with Chris? How do you even know his name? And how do you know what he said was lies...

If you want to talk about maturity ... let talk about getting information about someone on hear say... sounds like high school maturity to me...

And again ... how do you know LJT lied... based on what? Hear say?

Again... like I have said before... its a huge band wagon over there thats based on hear say and very limited information...

I'm not on any bandwagons.

And the LPP/100 PPS Ultralyte issue is just one specific example - one that I missed in my previous readings of the LJT Blogs, I'll readily admit - of several such lies that I've pointed out before.

No, you did not ask us to trust LJT nor The Goons but of the LaserStar, specifically, all the evidence that you can cite/present is their data:

CONSUMER ALERT - Certain "Testers" Unethical Radar Detector Reviews - even after your initial claim, back in March, that you'd test the full-retail version of the LaserStar with your PL-II ( CONSUMER ALERT - Certain "Testers" Unethical Radar Detector Reviews ) which, even today, has yet to take place.....

You want us to distrust the GOL.

Fine. I may not be willing to accept that, but for the sake of argument, I'm willing to entertain the logical possibility.

You want us to look at the LaserStar favorably.

But how can we?

Given that you don't want us to trust the GOL - and yet, for the very same reasons (much of what I've re-cited above), we cannot trust the evidence of the LaserStar's supposed worth, from LJT/The Goons, who've behaved dishonorably (Ronin's LPP/ZR3 video, taken for LS) as well as dishonestly (presentation of the LPP/100 PPS UL issue, as well as the many inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the "Consumer Warning" video).

No, you did not ask us to trust The Goons nor LJT.

But by your reasoning, and by the evidence presented here, shouldn't we also be highly critical of their claims, too? and to also apply the same level of doubt and suspicion towards their data - not only of the LaserStar, but *all* of their tested units and results?

If you do not care, as you insist that you don't, then why even bother to defend the LaserStar? particularly in light of all the data which casts doubt and suspicion on the claims by LJT and The Goons - which, ironically, you submit as your proof.

Sure, you did not ask us to trust LJT and The Goons directly.

But by supplying their data in-favor of the defense of what you've cited about the LaserStar, are you not, by proxy, asking that of us? Is that not the logical conclusion we are supposed to draw? or is that data of the LaserStar *not* to be trusted?

And if that data is not to be trusted, then what *IS* out there, regarding the LaserStar?

There's certainly no independent hobbyist testing (since you ask us to totally discount the GOL, which, ironically, even though LJT/The Goons so vehemently attack, they used the [i]GOL[/b]'s data on the LPP, to turn around and attack that entity, which they've themselves favored and lobbied heavily for, immediately before they jumped ship for the LaserStar; disavowing the LPP, literally, overnight) of the LaserStar.....

And if we really wanted to carry things *that* far - you ask us not to believe GOL's past data of the LI, because it was a beta unit. You ask us not to believe GOL's currrent data of the LI, because they have ties to Ivan.

Yet, the only proof that you can supply, yourself, of the LaserStar's performance is via a beta unit - supplied to you by its manufacturer.

Where is the logic, there?

All that I've seen from you, Subie is just a bunch of doublethink, asking us to accept the things that you accept, and question the things that you question - to the exclusion of all logic and all available data.

---

And I'm also still waiting on this:

Originally Posted by Subie_07

I will explain my questions in a PM...

You say you don't have the time to answer my post above.

But instead you make contributions to another thread?

Why dodge the issues here?