[TSi+WRX]

Originally Posted by Subie_07

When I was still off the boards I would scan read about problems with LI and Ivan not responding to people at all and basically Fucked over Elvis...

Now am I mistaken?

No, you're not mistaken, you're quite right - there *WERE* numerous complaints, and yes, in a way Elvis did get "fucked over." But honestly, how much of that was the "business model" that Elvis propagaged - with the examination then focused on why Cliff (C55/C63) was able to not only take over, but succeed, where Elvis failed? [ Everyone who knows me knows that I had no complaints about Elvis, that he did right by me, not once, but twice. Yet, it's also no secret that I'd always been hesitant to recommend the LI, based on the "business model" that Elvis established and then carried through. I'm a firm believer of "what one man can do, so can another" - and despite my fondness of Elvis, based on my past experiences with him, I also, out of fairness, cannot but ask "why" the reasons may be that he could not succeed, where Cliff clearly does. ]

And yes, there were many legitimately disgruntled early-adopters of the LI. No doubt about it. Similarly, the MazdaForums "Group Buy" floundered along.

But at the same time, it should be noted that those problems were eventually - even if it did take until Cliff finally stepped to the scene - resolved.

And just the same, it should be noted that in the context of that particular discussion, which took place in mid-late August of this year, just last month, it'd been MONTHS since Cliff had taken over, and by that point, complaints of the LI - both of its technical durability/reliability as well as of any customer-service/warranty related concerns, had long been a thing of the past.

Additionally, in what I'd quoted of my question/statement ( again, for reference: CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls ) further brought forward the fact that Blinder *did* eventually address the J11 failures (no matter how badly this was handled or delayed, it still finally took place), as well as the fact that the LI Team did respond to end-user inputs (and this was even before LI took active steps, proven steps, against the LTI TruSpeed - which, even as of now, is *still* a step that no other jammer maker has proved to have undertaken).

Yes, there were negatives, but to frame the discussion as you have was to exclude any and all of the positives - positives which were, and are, in fact the standard of operation now, versus what was and used to be.

Again, to be fair to all the parties involved, both sides of the equation should have been examined, but instead, you chose to focus on the negatives only, and past negatives at that, which were, at the time of that very discussion, out-dated and inaccurate (as it had been proven, by that point, that all early-run LI concerns have been addressed, and warranty claims properly honored).

and I will send you a PM about some info on the GOL test, and will explain why I do not trust the results in regards to the LS.

That's good by me, and you know that if you ask me, explicitly, to keep something private, I will.

But that's the thing, I don't completely trust the GOL results of the LaserStar, either - I've stated this, myself, before. Here, on the Laser Pro Park Support Forums, as well as on the LI Forums and at RD.net.

I'm willing to discount that data, given the background interactions between the GOL and The Goons.

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You'll have to pardon the two cuts-and-pastes below, I've taken things a bit out-of-order per your original line of responses, but I think that it helps the flow of conversation a bit, to merge the replies as such. I hope you can see the logic of the replies:

This whole topic got way off track... and out of hand... and its partly my fault... My deal in that post was stating the power of GOL and the power they have to push things like the LI. So again... I will explain my questions in a PM...

Like I said, the thread got out of hand... and I can tell you that yes I was being political... So I guess what I should have said above is ... I will try to answer your questions about the Laser Star directly the best I know... and I want to stay away from politics and bandwagons.

It went bad to worse... especially after CVRs personal attacks... I pretty much was just pissed.

I apologize for all that.

I agree - and I apologize, in-turn, for having come down so hard on you.

Indeed, your responses were not out-of-sync with what you'd been accused of by the other participating parties.

It's hard to separate the personal from the objective, particularly in this case.

Audi use to help Alex with sales back in the day... He stopped when him and chris did the LJTs website thats all I know. I do not know any specifics on what happened or why.

I do not know why, I am not Audi... I also do not know why he PM'd you about the Laser Star... I honestly do not know about that. I can not really comment on it except that I do not know.

As far as questioning LJTs and why Ronins Video is on the website... I have no idea why that happened... I will say that its pretty much pointless to say question LJTs cause everyone already does... I do not have a problem with that... I just think people are missing the bigger problem... but I already have stated that and I really do not want to go that route again.

I understand well that you're not Audi - but the question raised is not to explain to me the whys and hows of his actions, instead, what I call to question is simply how you could weigh data from LJT and The Goons with more trust than what you place with the same from the GOL, when such questions as I've posed about the conduct of business of The Goons and LJT clearly reflects dishonesty and malice.

If you don't trust the GOL, given your basis of judgement, then how could you turn around and trust LJT/The Goons, given just the issues that I've cited above?

I think that the bigger question here is not whether or not the GOL can be trusted, but rather, why can anyone trust LJT/The Goons at all, given the overwhelming evidence that something's just quite right.

You ask that we not trust the GOL or LI, based on the background histories, based on the underlying conflicts, based on the fact that they do have industry ties.

Fine, that's a valid argument - whether I agree with it or not, that doesn't matter. The argument is sound.

What fails, though, is your defense of LJT, The Goons, and LaserStar.

Based on the same reasons that you ask us not to trust the GOL/LI, it's impossible for us not to distrust and doubt LJT/The Goons/LaserStar.

Based on the evidence at hand, of the inaccuracies portrayed by and of the deceitfulness of one key member of the LJT crew and The Goons, it becomes impossible for us to view things in their favor.

That's the big question, and that's the big answer as well.

Originally Posted by Subie_07

I think it boils down to Build Quality... .... The Epoxy is merely a back up protections... but I guess what you have been saying all along is if they get it right the first time (like the Zr3) they you wouldn't need a back up... So silicone vs epoxy would not matter if both have done well with their weather sealing. But we will not know till people use both...

I agree - there's no way to know until enough people use both, for long enough.

And that's also why I'm concerned about the LaserStar and PASS, in that due to their respective performances in the GOL testing (and the latter, also in the hands of the majority of known independent and group tests so far) would tremendously impact their potential sales.

That would very well cut down the potential population we have to sample from, later on.

As for the epoxy/silicone issue, I also think that as weathersealing, it is indeed a secondary concern. As one of the materials engineers brought up on RD.net, from the photographic evidence that we've seen of failures of the AL G8 heads, moisture was able to work its way between the epoxy shielding and the circuitboard. Indeed, I think that the true impact will be overall build-quality.

And what happened to Elvis?

See above.

I am hoping to show up to the Houston Test with a Laser Star that Neil owes me but I am still waiting... He went out of town for a week and so I have had a hard time getting ahold of him... but If I have it I will be there with it.

Although I think that's a step forward, I think that as of this time, anything but a blind-purchased unit will be examined with - at best - doubt.

And I forgot to Comment on the K40 ...
If you believe Carl on his tests... then you have other problems...

Carl and the SML is a sham! It pushes nothing but Belscort and Blinder and Veil!

No, not SML/Fors.

Instead, Craig Peterson and RadarTest.

Again, this brings up the question of who to trust.

Peterson could also be said to be in-bed with the big manufacturers, but then again, K40 has been known to pull its own weight in exerting its influence. What are we, really, to think, here?

At the same time, members of The Goons, before going their separate ways via LJT, have always been more than just a little negative about K40, even making the infamous video demonstrating the ineffectiveness of their previous laser jammer device, which was later pulled from public eye. So the question begs: why the switch now? Does being somehow in-conflict with dealerships that are used for the "professional installation" of the LaserStar "sponsorship" somehow run them afoul of K40's eyes? or are they trying to defray their former run-in with K40, so that they can use LJT to its full marketing effect, by somehow validating K40's latest, and thereby not run afoul of their influences?

If the EX series is truly effective, Peterson has a lot at stake - I don't think that K40 would put up with such statements in a public/marketable manner. At the same time, if it is not, why would LJT say that it was anything less than the "sadly outdated" (why such an understatement and such a non-specific stance, when, before, their opinions were vehement and directed?) previous version?

To be frank, I trust neither.